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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:47 am 
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Nobody: it was with hesitation I approved your post. I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinions and given this is in the "Off Topic" section here, I could find no particular reason to deny posting it, though there were some strong accusations. Perhaps Mark will wake up and choose to delete your post and this reply, and if so, such is his prerogative.

I also think denying your post here denies Russian the chance to respond to these allegations.

I find it odd you would post this here instead of on his forums, but I do understand that were you to post this there, it would likely be deleted.


So, you've said your piece, let's hear what the rebuttal is.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:10 am 
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Well I’ll make a long story short.

The Russian basically stole SD equations and more without giving due credit or asking. In contradiction to his own policies which he outlined on his site. I asked him to removed them, followed by me deleting my posts - I did not publicly say anything derogatory (previous post was fist one). So I start deleting my posts and in the middle of doing so get banned.

Let’s see what Russian says, I would like to hear how he is going to try to spin this.

As far copying MS look at VR input and you judge, not even a resistor or cap value is changed.

I could go on, but it’s late and just home - time for some sleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:59 am 
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abecedarian wrote:
Perhaps Mark will wake up


Perhaps.

What I'm trying to understand is what exactly the complaint is?

That they grabbed known good HW designs and reverse engineered them? I'ts nice to give credit to the original designer but its not required unless it's built from their actual files....was it? Probably no way to ever know right?

copied equations? you can't copyright math as far as I know. Again it's nice to give credit when you lift an idea from someone but it's not really required.

I don't think anyone with even 1/2 a clue who reads that forum believes they have a fully functional ECU......but they do have a functioning ECU as far as I can tell so I'm not really sure i understand the complaint here either.

Nobody - So what I'm left with is you think they should be more open about there sources, got it. Let's move on please.


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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:02 pm 
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Nobody wrote:
getting the “Russian” to code/design something useful without resorting to plagiarism is a huge stretch too


plagiarism is a big word for a nickname without a name. I think some specifics would be great... Are we by any chance talking about some Speed Density formulas you have invented? Really? Have you invented them? I am a bit confused.

Let's separate the firmware and the hardware please, if you know the difference. I am electronically challenged and most of the hardware I am using was designed by other people (obviously not MS. I do not have the knowledge to comment but I really suspect you are referring to the reference design as proposed in MAX application notes)

Andrey Belomutskiy

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:20 pm 
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May I suggest that all posts remain in the realm of civil discourse. Stick to stating facts, with citations when possible.

Unjustifiable ad hominem and innuendo, as well as any personal attacks of any nature will not be tolerated.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:27 pm 
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I like this plan :)

I guess we can begin by pointing at some specific files & line ranges within https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/firmware/?

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Russian wrote:
...
I guess we can begin by pointing at some specific files & line ranges within https://sourceforge.net/p/rusefi/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/firmware/?

Care to point out specific things of interest?

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:31 pm 
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I have an idea what this is about but I think it would make more sense if the other side does the pointing, just to be sure?

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:27 am 
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russian wrote:
I have an idea what this is about but I think it would make more sense if the other side does the pointing, just to be sure?


Well, the allegations are you copied B&G/MS SD code and some of their schematics / circuit design.

I agree with Mark, somewhat, that with regards to circuitry, if you or someone else involved, happened to borrow from MS designs, so what? Even their early stuff, which is available on the Internet and made such when MS was more open-source friendly... the early stuff clearly did work and serve its purpose at the time. It wasn't perfect and didn't fit an 'every possible use' scenario either. Still, it's a decent jumping off point.

I do, also, agree with Nobody, to a point, that if said things, MS firmware and hardware, were the basis for some of the work attribution would be prudent. Doing so acknowledges, and gives credit to the source while simultaneously showing it wasn't perfect and the design is evolving towards a better solution.

To be fair, rusefi has several people contributing towards circuit board designs, making decisions regarding components and such. So, although 'russian' is ultimately responsible for the project, he is not the origin of all things inclusive regarding it.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:34 pm 
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I would like to mention rusefi is using, and drawing from, reference designs from the various chip vendors as well as using formulae that are openly available on the Internet. By all recollection, these pre-date anything B&G/MS did. P=VT and such have been known for at least a few hundred years, mind you.

Similarly, the naming of variables within equations may be similar, if not identical, across various developers' code, and are thus determined by the programmer(s) when writing the source.

B&G/MS and others such as JBPerf also draw from manufacturers' reference designs so I see no issue, nor apparently does anyone else or there would be complaints similar to this on their forums. For instance, say I have a sensor that measures 'manifold absolute pressure'... is it not logical to call the variable used to store its output "MAP"?

So, I would like to know, specifically, and hopefully "Nobody" can cite, which parts of MS/B&G code are implicated in the allegation(s) that rusefi copied from, and similarly and specifically, which parts of which B&G/MS schematic(s) and electrical designs are rusefi accused of copying?

Until the aforementioned are provided, it's my opinion that rusefi has not infringed on anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Jean was kind to respond to my inquiry, see http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=675&p=10856#p10856

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:25 pm 
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So people don't have to click around:

Quote:
Andrey,

Thank you for notifying me.

I have no claim to any IP on the use the MAX chip and there is nothing on my board that couldn't be gathered from the datasheet (and it's the same for the official MS boards, as far as I know). The floating input thing is also something you can get from the datasheet even if it's not explicitly mentioned as being a Hall sensor setup; I just seem to be the first one who made it more widely known.

So I'm not sure what the drama is and where it comes from but that definitely is not warranted.

Jean

p.s. You can post this reply on your forum if you think it would help.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone has been holding out.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:22 pm 
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Okay... it's been a week since the accusations were levied and there's been no substantiation of the accusations presented.

I am going to lock this thread, with the following comments in closing:

These accusations / allegations should have been raised and addressed in the appropriate forum, not here.

The accusations should have been accompanied with information directly supporting the claims mad.

As far as I can tell, RUSEFI has not done anything anyone else not would have done with regards to 'copying' something. The code may borrow some stylistic impression from others, variable may be named similarly, and algorithms may have been adapted from other systems who have made their code available on the Internet.

And to be fair, I'm sure very little of what B&G has done, and provided to the community is actually built on unique ideas, and is, rather, the culmination of many man-hours scouring the Internet for whatever snippet they can find and the aggregation of code and ideas accumulated from when they were "open-source"... not to mention the concepts and such they've gleaned from MSExtra users.

It's worth noting B&G seems to be fairly adept at generating products. It's also similarly worth noting that the arguable majority of users of their hardware resort to MSExtra code in favor over the canned code.

RUSEFI has a comparatively small user base at the moment, but has many more people interested in it. This leaves Andrey (spelling?) in the odd position of being the sole code-base maintainer, but he does do his best to help the users with issues, whilst also evolving the code.

Jared, similarly, has contributed significantly to the hardware aspect of the project. And although I may take issue with some of the design choices made, I'm not in a position to dictate which direction things go, and even then, he does get things working.


I'd also like to commend Andrey (one day I'll spell it right, no? :D) for forward thinking in his consideration of using the ARM M4 code he's developed for the STM board he's using, with a more appropriate processor for automotive use. The TMS570 line is at the forefront of alternate architectures challenging FreeScale, and TI also provides methodologies to achieving full compliance with standards... something I haven't seen FreeScale providing unless they design it themselves.

But I digress, yet again. ;)

In summary, it's my opinion that the allegations against RUSEFI are false, if for no other reason than justification for the allegations have not been presented here, where the allegations were made public. Everyone has their opinions regarding things, so I do encourage everyone to voice those opinions whenever, wherever the opportunity presents itself. Preferably, that should occur within the forum most relevant to the allegations.

Good day, and I love you all... but not in that way. ;)
We may not always see eye-to-eye, but we can always have discussions about our differences. And that concept lies at the core of open source software and hardware.

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