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 Post subject: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:24 pm 
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I was thinking this section shouldn't be empty then I notice I hadn't even post thread here :o

OS here's a quick run down on the Ferrari I'm building....and have been for about 5 years now :oops:

Its a 1984 308 quatrovalve that I'm fitting a 5.4 liter V12 into. The engine is a 1982 or 83 ferrari 400i block that is I made 86mm bore liners for to replace the stock 81 and bump it from 4.8 to 5.4 liter.

The car is a QV and the 400i engine is a 2valve and that just seemed wrong so I'm force fitting a set of ferrari testarossa 4v heads.....and 12 ducati throttle bodies....and ferrari 360 Ti connecting rods.....custom pistons.....billet cam.....hayabus valve train....3650 dry sump....6 lb 7.25 triple disc carbon-carbon clutch on a billet 4130 flywheel...you get the idea :)


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:36 pm 
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The project at the moment is custom valve guides. I switched from the 7mm ferrari shim on bucket setup to the hayabusa 5mm shim under bucket setup and that meant customm valve guides....48 of them.....and sing I was goign to have to make custom guides and billet cams( the TR and 400i have different firing orders,, chian vs balt drive, etc so the TR cams couldn't be used) anyway I increased the intake valve to valve spacing to allow 5mm over size intake valves and flow is up for 92 cfm @10" h2o to 156 cfm at 10"...it should pull hard to about 9500-10000 now.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:52 am 
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I think "Ferankinrarri" is a better name.
The "Fer" to the "ankin" sounds like an engine revving up.

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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:26 pm 
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The frankenferrari got new seats and guides today. The grill worked great for warming the heads to 300F, liquid N2 to cool the seats and guides.....now ready to finish machine.

The intank bucket went from 33mm ot 35mm so I could change the valve to valve distance from 36mm ot 38mm so I could go from 28.5mm intakes to 34mm......it's a slippery slope but intake flow is up from 92 cfm @ 10" to 156cfm @ 10" :D


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:43 pm 
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mk e wrote:
Image


Not sure why, but I expected you to be...

... well ...

... how to be nice? ...

... more tan?




Nice work on the car too.
:D

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My O5E candidate: 1982 Honda CX500TC motorcycle.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:48 pm 
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abecedarian wrote:
mk e wrote:

Not sure why, but I expected you to be...


... more tan?
:D



I know I look like a pig these days......but the 2+ in think steaks I made last night were delicious.....and the left over liquid N2 from today couldn't be wasted so now I have a gallon of strawberry ice-cream that needs to be eaten....


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:37 am 
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mk e wrote:
abecedarian wrote:
mk e wrote:

Not sure why, but I expected you to be...


... more tan?
:D



I know I look like a pig these days......but the 2+ in thick steaks I made last night were delicious.....and the left over liquid N2 from today couldn't be wasted so now I have a gallon of strawberry ice-cream that needs to be eaten....


I stepped on a scale last night :o

......the diet started about 30 seconds later :(


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:40 pm 
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I'm working on finish machining the guides and seats......and not really liking that this is a 48V engine. It's for what seems like forever! :cry:

....but I guess on the bright side the longer it takes me to finish the engine the longer we have to get o5e working :)


oh and while the diet got a little interrupted with me eating and drinking way too much, have dropped 5 lbs....just 20 more to go!


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:34 am 
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Valve seats getting cut. The intakes are done and I've got about 2/3 of the work done on the exhausts. The valves are 34/29mm vs the stock 28.5/25mm so the new exhaust valves are 0.5mm larger than the original intake valve meaning the original size intakes drop inside the new seats :)

I use a fancy profile cutter a buddy pointed me to....it does a nice job getting lots of air to flow through a slightly smaller seat ID, whihc means a win-win were you get a the perimeter of a large valve to get the flow area exposed faster for high rpm but then velocities you normally get from smaller valves which helps the low rpm.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:11 am 
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FINALLY, I'm starting to get time for car stuff again and as of last night the seats are all cut and I'm onto the hand work of blending the seats into the port.

The intake port have already been roughed so the blending is minor and their ready for the final flow bench work, but I hadn't touched the exhausts before last night and the new exhaust valves are 5mm oversize so there's a good amount of material to come out. Luckily the 80s ferrari OEM exhaust ports WAY oversize so I think all I'll need to do is the blend the 1/2" or so near the seat and they be good to go.....I hope.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:58 am 
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Good news. This, along with the update given for Rob's ECU means O5E as a live system won't be far away.

Are you planning on hand-porting / blending or using something like extruded media to clean up the area between the seats and the heads?

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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:42 am 
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abecedarian wrote:
Are you planning on hand-porting / blending or using something like extruded media to clean up the area between the seats and the heads?


Hand porting......extruded media generally does way more harm than good.

Don't forget these ports have been MASSIVELY reworked already, now it's down to the finish finish work.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:00 pm 
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mk e wrote:
abecedarian wrote:
Are you planning on hand-porting / blending or using something like extruded media to clean up the area between the seats and the heads?


Hand porting......extruded media generally does way more harm than good.

Don't forget these ports have been MASSIVELY reworked already, now it's down to the finish finish work.

I've heard mixed things about extruded media also. The negatives were usually due to the choice of abrasive being too aggressive or the viscosity of the carrier being incorrect. I've also heard it's okay for the initial stages, balancing / equalizing volumes, et cetera, but should be followed up with hand porting / polishing. I can also imagine it would have issues with multi-valve heads as well.

Anyhow, can't wait to see how this turns out.

:D

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My O5E candidate: 1982 Honda CX500TC motorcycle.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:12 am 
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abecedarian wrote:
I've heard mixed things about extruded media also. The negatives were usually due to the choice of abrasive being too aggressive or the viscosity of the carrier being incorrect. I've also heard it's okay for the initial stages, balancing / equalizing volumes, et cetera, but should be followed up with hand porting / polishing. I can also imagine it would have issues with multi-valve heads as well.

Anyhow, can't wait to see how this turns out.

:D


The issue I've always had with it is that it cuts where there is pressure......which means bends/curves start to take unhelpful shapes.

Below is the before/after graph on these intakes.....grinding in ONLY the right places can be quite helpful


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File comment: TR head intake flow (CFM @ 10")& velocity (f/s) before/after porting
Stock v port velocity 2010-04-007.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:53 am 
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Okay, I'll shut up.

:oops:

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My O5E candidate: 1982 Honda CX500TC motorcycle.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:48 am 
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abecedarian wrote:
Okay, I'll shut up.

:oops:


No , no . This stuff is SOOOO misunderstood in the hotrodding world.

When I say this engine should make a VE or 120+% most people think I've lost my mind because only boosted engines have VEs over 100%! :lol:

Way back when I started these heads I knew the intake ports were a total loss so I cut them out and built new ones. but the exhaust ports I thought looked fine...plenty big, so I was thinking just just change the valves, clean them up and they'll be good to go.

I put them on the flow bench this weekend and .....WRONG! They are just awful!

The fix?
Grind the heck out of the area around the guide to fix a choke point and gain 10%.

Then fill part of the port in behind that and gain another 20% more flow.

...and make the flow and more importantly the velocity numbers required to get a 120+% VE out of the thing ;)


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:56 am 
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My exhaust flow is confusing me......it fails to improve the way I"d expect in the .350/.400 lift range.

It's still decent but weird. My new exhaust valves are exactly stock intake valve size and as you can see even with the low/worse exhaust port I'm beating the stock intake handily....but I don't understand what's going on at .350/.400. The port is running 75%-78% of my intake everywhere but drops to 70% in the .350/.400...strange.

My exhaust cam is .416" and with clearance yields .409" lift so the engine will never see the weirdness going on but the extra flow being those points up to 75% adds hp on the sim(on top but costs a bit in the mid-range) so I'd like to figure out exactly what's going on......but after tonight I'm call it good enough and moving one I think


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:49 am 
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I found the weirdness in the flow...me getting distracted mid-test then writing numbers on the wrong line. At last it was an easy fix and I can call the port development done now.

I'm going to need to do a little more weld on some of them though...I didn't get the weld close enough to the seats in a few places and that is pretty critical to flow....and that means pulling out the mini-tig torch and trying to weld where I can't actually see....I hate that.

But the flow looks good on the ports that are welded enough so that' a step in the right direction at least.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:20 am 
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With the ports basically settled and also basically at goal I've been playing quite a bit with dynomation5 again....and things have gotten remarkably stable. There are 2 calculation methods in the SW, a pumping model that has a lot of empirical type stuff in it and a wave model that is more theory based and looks at the pressures and sonic differences/waves and the 2 are matching within about 5% and the numbers the models are spitting out are low compared to my simple back of the envelope approximations....which are all very good signs things are right.

I'm also finding that stuff like +/-2 deg on cam timing, +/- 1/2" on intake stack length, normal or merge type collectors, etc all have only small effects and they do about what you'd expect.....which is a great sign things are right.

Using the hybrid model option which combines the SW's 2 simulation methods to give a "most probable" type result, this is looking like an honest 900hp or 165hp/liter , naturally aspirated, on pump gas engine. :)


.....or a 1011 on E85 :o


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:56 am 
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Nice work! ;)

Maybe I should send my bike's engine to you for some TLC? :P

Not sure how the clutch would hold up to a 200% increase in power though. :?

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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:39 am 
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I was able to wring just a little more out of the exhaust port that the sim says is good for 2% more hp :)

.....really sensitive trying ti hit these number but 2 ports are now finished and matching nicely. I started welding on #3 and melted my torch. I learned this lesson once before, or should have learned anyway...when the insulator looks sketchy it is sketchy and a shorted and melted $250 torch come next so stop and change the $20 insulator

Fortunately the last torch I destroyed wasn't as destroyed as yesterdays so I pulled it out and I think I was able to repair it (water doesn't shot out any more at least) I think so when the new collects and gas cups I ordered last week arrive I can get back to welding


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:06 am 
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abecedarian wrote:
Nice work! ;)

Maybe I should send my bike's engine to you for some TLC? :P

Not sure how the clutch would hold up to a 200% increase in power though. :?


It's easy to spend a LOT of time on getting the ports working right but it's pretty important if you want to make hp so .

Year's ago a very smart guy who'd been doing heads for years said "I don't care if you're Jesus Christ himself, without air you aren't going to make hp!" and his engines ran VEs in the 135%-139% and made buckets of hp.

Pretty regularly I have guys, normally turbo guys, telling me that the only way to make over 100% VE is to add boost....the last few years I've learned to just smile and nod

Below is the predicted hp (red) and VE(green) for this engine...notice the VE is north of 130% ;)

For you, a nice mild boosted engine should be making over 200hp/l and 300hp/l on pump gas is certainly within reach. The problem is though that you'll probably need heads, pistons, cams, exhaust, intake all reworked/replaced if you want it right when you're done.

Certainly flowing the heads is a great place to start but you need to be crystal clear on the goal before starting because ALL the parts need to match properly when you're done and that won't happen if you piecemeal the build and change you mind 12 times along the way.


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Hybrid hp v VE 2013-11-04.JPG
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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:15 am 
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Very impressive numbers considering the engine's base line.

And I know what you mean about some people not understanding well tuned induction and exhaust systems can increase VE well above 100%. Various race (and street-able) engines have done so for years without boost.


I'm hoping, when the money starts flowing again, and I have a functional, tunable EFI system on my bike I can start doing things like bumping up the compression (7.2:1 is a dog when off boost) and porting the heads and intake. I've already identified locations for knock sensors (I know so don't go there ;)) and plan to integrate WBO2 and maybe EGT sensors also.

I won't go much faster, but will get there quicker. :D
... damned shaft drive....

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My O5E candidate: 1982 Honda CX500TC motorcycle.


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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:38 pm 
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The simulator says this thing really would prefer a step head and 14" stack to the normal header and 12" stacks. The problem is 12" is all the fits under the hood......it looks like I'll be cutting a whole in the hood :shock:

It also looks like I'll need to weld a little more in the exhaust ports. The header that seems to make the most hp is a 1.63/1.88 step header but that softens/weirds the mid range, a 1/5/1.75 step head is nearly as good for hp and doesn't harm the mid-range. The port exit is more like a 1.63 area wise so not ideal for a 1.5" pipe....time to put some clay in the port exit and make sure it flows right at the reduced size, I expect it will because the minimum section area that is about 2" inside the port is a 1.22" dia equivalent so I'd guess filling and a smaller pipe will help not hurt....but the flow bench will answer that question quick enough.


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2013-11-15 current to step 14-6 stack v current.JPG
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 Post subject: Re: FrankenFerrari
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:13 pm 
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I kind of hate to admit this on this forum....

I decided to ordered a motec M150....they are really nice and I'm just not seeing enough progress on 05e to give me confidence it will be ready when my engine is. The unit is not is true release yet, at least not the general purpose version but will be soon. I'll probably buy the HW this week. My back up was an M800 I had on the shelf but I sold that knowing the M150 was coming...and basically it looks like money wise it's a wash.

The good news for 05e though is I'm seeing a few things in their new setup that I really like......and are pretty easy o5e adds :)


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