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 Post subject: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:55 am 
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Location: Australia :)
Hello All,

I'm Steve, I own a group of companies two of which are involved in Software development and electromechanical engineering. I have a life long interest in foolishly modifying cars and tinker in the workshop whenever I have spare time.

I've known about this project for a while but honestly had no reason to look at it in depth until now.

I've had a long string of project vehicles and usually followed the engine swap route rather than modifying an existing setup. That meant most of my tuning to date has been mechanical, but engine swaps involve systems integration so I have a great deal of experience getting modern electronics to work in old vehicles, and on occasion that has involved convincing the electrical system that all is well even though most of the original vehicle is now missing!.

CAN bus in the last decade or so has actually made this harder to research, plan and design but easier to implement. For example my 1981 Porsche 928 has no factory engine ECU as it's CIS/K-Jet, but I have integrated:-
Factory sat-nav/cd/radio from an Audi R8 which requires CAN to operate.
Instrument cluster from a 2004 Porsche 911 which requires CAN for VSS/RPM/Temp etc.
Driving all this is a prototype of one of our custom CAN gateways using s12x Freescale processor to emulate the body electrics of both vehicles for the NAV and acting as a gateway between the 100k body can and 500k engine can busses. On the engine side I have a B&G MicroSquirt also with custom firmware written by us emulating the 911 engine and trans ecus and translating the analogue sensor data to CAN for the cluster.

This setup has been running happily for two years now - and in 2012 I donated the CAN handling portion of the source code to the MSExtra firmware team.

Since installing the MicroSquirt I've been tempted but unwilling to convert the old beastie to EFI, mainly as it seemed a shame to have an EMS in the vehicle that could but didn't control fuel and spark. A couple of month ago I was talking to the team here at the office and came up with a compromise we call FrankenCIS ( a coincidence only as I was honestly unaware you have nicknamed your dev setup Franken(stein)ECU until this afternoon)
Having long experience with the MS firmware and platform we decided to see if we could create a system that catered for CIS vehicles but used the cheap and readily available MS hardware to run the wet side of CIS with all the bells and whistles available in a modernish EMS. two weeks of coding and a month or so of hardware prototyping and we have a tested and running system which appears to be gaining a following.
example - http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/820323-digital-wur-plus-frankencis.html

From the outset we planned a DIY community version for the likes of the MS folks and a proper commercially developed and supported version for our clients.
Now we have a dilemma! MS was planned on being the initial controller for the DIY option but we didn't want to restrict the community to just one ECU so Google we go to see who else is out there (both old and new)

Sadly but not unexpected there is not much new since we looked around some time ago
The Freescale sponsored open project appears to have never got off the ground
o5e is still here but appers to be changing tack?
FreeEMS appears to be still plugging along but...

So, I'm curious to talk to someone about bringing our toys to your environment,
and benefitting both of us.

Thanks and Regards,
Steve

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Steve
Bosch K-Jetronic Injection with FrankenCIS
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Location: Over here, doing 'over here' things.
I didn't see it mentioned in the thread over on pelican, but was any thought given to doing this:
- fuel pump outputs to a manifold / distribution system to which the injectors are connected, with a safety valve between the fuel pump and manifold such that injectors receive no fuel if the valve is closed- closed being the default, requiring the ECU to actively open the valve;
- ECU varies fuel pump speed and thus pressure, possibly with a bypass solenoid that can be utilized if the pump happens to output too much fuel pressure, such as what would occur during a WOT to closed throttle situation- the above mentioned valve could be open to dump fuel back to the tank in such circumstances thus combining functions into one valve;
- ECU controls fuel pump speed, thus pressure, using appropriate drivers... H-bridge for instance, if applicable, and thus the amount of fuel delivered.

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/me goes off to the corner feeling like Jerry Springer with a mullet.

My O5E candidate: 1982 Honda CX500TC motorcycle.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:43 pm 
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Location: Australia :)
Honestly, no, although an ePump is an an intriguing idea.

CIS-E is probably the closest to the ideal candidate for modern EMS control, retaining all the good features of CIS without the WUR and allowing complete control of mixture and fuel flow via the electronic pressure valve on the side.

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Steve
Bosch K-Jetronic Injection with FrankenCIS
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Location: Australia :)
From the other thread
abecedarian wrote:
You used Microsquirt there, so you weren't really using appropriate hardware for moving to full engine control applicable to more than a half-dozen cylinders. Did it actually support 3 ignition outputs, as would be needed to control 6 in wasted spark?


Correct and intentional, the box is cheap enough to throw away if needed but still capable of single coil and batch fired injection which is where most of them would go anyway. Anyone wanting more advanced EFI wouldn't be entertaining the retention of CIS anyway. CIS has some huge fuelling advantages over electronic injector based systems but is misunderstood and therefore normally discounted and replaced.

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Steve
Bosch K-Jetronic Injection with FrankenCIS
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:53 pm 
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Location: Over here, doing 'over here' things.
Well, when the box has finished serving its purpose, throw it my way! ;)

And I do agree CIS does hold some advantages such as better atomization, in general, and overall less susceptibility to failure being a purely mechanical part as opposed to a mechanical / electrical hybrid of sorts.


I look forward to reading about your excursions with O5E.

And if you happen to need a TRK-MPC5634M kit, I have one here I don't anticipate using. I'd be willing to part with it for the cost of shipping and a small donation.

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/me goes off to the corner feeling like Jerry Springer with a mullet.

My O5E candidate: 1982 Honda CX500TC motorcycle.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Location: Australia :)
So, do I assume it's pretty much over for o5e?

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Steve
Bosch K-Jetronic Injection with FrankenCIS
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:48 am 
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reanimotion wrote:
So, do I assume it's pretty much over for o5e?

I cannot say one way or other O5E is done with; that is Mark's call.

If you'd like to pursue a CIS / O5E hybrid, or even something based on the MPC5634M for CIS, I've no problem, nor do I think Mark would take issue with a forum here you could use. You would be the moderator / administrator over that, should you choose: it would be your baby.

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/me goes off to the corner feeling like Jerry Springer with a mullet.

My O5E candidate: 1982 Honda CX500TC motorcycle.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:52 am 
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reanimotion wrote:
CIS has some huge fuelling advantages over electronic injector based systems but is misunderstood and therefore normally discounted and replaced.


I've been personally responsible for discounting and replacing about half a dozen of them ;)

It seems like every time I get buried with other stuff something interesting happens over here. A buddy and I had discussed doing something for CIS apps to get the performance up while keeping a stock look which is important to many owners.

These systems were used on 80's ferraris and while they do a fine job metering fuel, they restrict the air flow pretty significantly. on 2V 308 engines the cost is about 20-25 hp, on the 4V engines it's closer to 30hp which is a lot on an engine rated at 205 and 235 respectively.

anyway, we didn't come up with anything we liked but there is certainly a desire for something in the community. The forum you linked is down at the moment so I'll read up

Welcome.

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:08 am 
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Location: Australia :)
HI Mark,

That's the first time we've heard of an actual measured restriction, on the Porsche turbo 6s and our NA 4.7 v8s there is almost no noticeable flow change, but I believe our air plates are much larger in diameter.

The 20-30 loss is that before and after EFI swap - or - measured against rated power?

The Pelican site is a wobbly read, as it passes from concept to live testing while we develop the system :)
The test results are probably the deepest anyone has gone into actual control and system pressure mapping, so have been quite the eye opener on the bosch design internally.

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Steve
Bosch K-Jetronic Injection with FrankenCIS
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:48 am 
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reanimotion wrote:
HI Mark,

That's the first time we've heard of an actual measured restriction, on the Porsche turbo 6s and our NA 4.7 v8s there is almost no noticeable flow change, but I believe our air plates are much larger in diameter.

The 20-30 loss is that before and after EFI swap - or - measured against rated power?


Yes, measured before and after.on several cars over the years....but the before/after are never clean to the dyno, swap the parts, back on the dyno tests, everything I've seen/experienced is more dynoed, a year or 2 long project, new dyno number so there is certainly some question. Maybe it's something else in the system other than the CIS itself too but I've never seen a partial part by part swap.

On a 2v 308, bolting off the CIS and bolting on the early carb setup is about 20hp. Same for converting the stock intake to EFI but its also included changing the air filter and such on every one I've seen.

Converting a 4V intake is 25-30.

reanimotion wrote:
The Pelican site is a wobbly read, as it passes from concept to live testing while we develop the system :)
The test results are probably the deepest anyone has gone into actual control and system pressure mapping, so have been quite the eye opener on the bosch design internally.


I'll have a look, it sounds interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:23 pm 
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Not sure the reason but CIS on my '78 1.5L Scirocco was definitely more powerful than the carb on my friend's '77 1.6L Scirocco. And contrary to the wiki page on these, there was a 5sp manual available in 1977. Both my friend and I had it.

Maybe the Italians and Germans couldn't translate things well enough for Ferrari to make something good even better?

:cry:

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/me goes off to the corner feeling like Jerry Springer with a mullet.

My O5E candidate: 1982 Honda CX500TC motorcycle.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve from Australia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:31 am 
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abecedarian wrote:
Not sure the reason but CIS on my '78 1.5L Scirocco was definitely more powerful than the carb on my friend's '77 1.6L Scirocco. And contrary to the wiki page on these, there was a 5sp manual available in 1977. Both my friend and I had it.

Maybe the Italians and Germans couldn't translate things well enough for Ferrari to make something good even better?

:cry:


If you replace a smallish carb then I could see HP going up, but on the Ferraris they replace 8 (4x2 really)biggish carbs so that could be the difference.


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